Discussion:
alternative living
(too old to reply)
r_d
2006-05-21 15:03:29 UTC
Permalink
Why the need for vegetarianism?

-It's Healthy
-It's Economical
-It's Ecological
-It's Compassionate
-It's Noble
-It's Peaceful

-To diminish the real threat of a worldwide pandemic from bird flu,
-To avoid the danger of mad cow disease (BSE) and pig disease (PMWS), etc.
-To stop the continuing gruesome sacrifice of billions of our sweet
domestic animals, marine life and feathered friends.

No one needs to eat meat. Even dogs can be healthy vegetarians, living long
and enjoying life. This is not an embellishment!

Some people are concerned that vegetable protein is not a sufficient source
for their diet. However many simple foods provide more than enough for
anyone.

*Protein Concentration*
-Tofu (from Soya): 16%
-Gluten (from flour): 17%
-Corn: 30%
-Rice: 8.5%
-Soy beans, kidney beans, chick peas, lentils, etc.: 10-35%
-Almonds, walnuts, cashews, hazel nuts, pine nuts, etc.: 14-30%
-Pumpkin seeds, sesame seeds, sunflower seeds, etc.: 18-24%

-Fruits and vegetables are full of vitamins, minerals and anti-oxidants and
contain high-quality fiber for maintaining good health and a long life.
-Concentrated multi-vitamin tablets/capsules are also a good source of
vitamins, minerals and anti-oxidants.

I am a vegetarian and have been for many years. I take no supplements and
lead a full existence. My weight has not changed and I am fully of energy
and life. I have known many people, vegetarian from birth, the same.


*For more information go to?*

http://AL.Godsdirectcontact.org.tw
or e-mail to ***@Godsdirectcontact.org
http://www.vegsoc.org/
http://www.vrg.org/
http://www.vegsource.com/
wanderriver
2006-05-23 13:30:36 UTC
Permalink
Why the need for vegetarianism?>>
Taoist philosophy/leaning is definitely the alternative life-style here
in the Bible Belt. Although there is no problem, as our quiet
life-styles do not interfer with the patriarchial xians on the one hand
and the mainstream center/left xians on the other. Both types of xians
have attempted to convert me, many times, but it never worked. I leave
them alone, as I respect their beliefs and we help, as neighbors, when
and if the need arises and we pretty much leave beliefs and life-styles
out of it. It's cool!

Taoists have no rules, about anything, so there is nothing to break.
Some eat meat and some do not.
-It's Healthy
-It's Economical
-It's Ecological
-It's Compassionate
-It's Noble
-It's Peaceful
-To diminish the real threat of a worldwide pandemic from bird flu,
-To avoid the danger of mad cow disease (BSE) and pig disease (PMWS), etc.
-To stop the continuing gruesome sacrifice of billions of our sweet
domestic animals, marine life and feathered friends.
No one needs to eat meat. Even dogs can be healthy vegetarians, living long
and enjoying life. This is not an embellishment!
Some people are concerned that vegetable protein is not a sufficient source
for their diet. However many simple foods provide more than enough for
anyone.
*Protein Concentration*
-Tofu (from Soya): 16%
-Gluten (from flour): 17%
-Corn: 30%
-Rice: 8.5%
-Soy beans, kidney beans, chick peas, lentils, etc.: 10-35%
-Almonds, walnuts, cashews, hazel nuts, pine nuts, etc.: 14-30%
-Pumpkin seeds, sesame seeds, sunflower seeds, etc.: 18-24%
-Fruits and vegetables are full of vitamins, minerals and anti-oxidants and
contain high-quality fiber for maintaining good health and a long life.
-Concentrated multi-vitamin tablets/capsules are also a good source of
vitamins, minerals and anti-oxidants.
I am a vegetarian and have been for many years. I take no supplements and
lead a full existence. My weight has not changed and I am fully of energy
and life. I have known many people, vegetarian from birth, the same.
*For more information go to?*
http://AL.Godsdirectcontact.org.tw
http://www.vegsoc.org/
http://www.vrg.org/
http://www.vegsource.com/
r_d
2006-05-23 14:15:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by wanderriver
Taoist philosophy/leaning is definitely the alternative life-style here
in the Bible Belt. Although there is no problem, as our quiet
life-styles do not interfer with the patriarchial xians on the one hand
and the mainstream center/left xians on the other. Both types of xians
have attempted to convert me, many times, but it never worked. I leave
them alone, as I respect their beliefs and we help, as neighbors, when
and if the need arises and we pretty much leave beliefs and life-styles
out of it. It's cool!
Taoists have no rules, about anything, so there is nothing to break.
Some eat meat and some do not.
Thanks for breaking the boycott.
Wasn't really coming from the angle of an xism.
More like a heartflet thing.

I have no question that it is very easy to be happy with no standards.

And when the time comes for the inevitable bodily-mentally induced
suferring,
we can only hope but flick that imaginary switch to 'wu-wei'
- as if we have ever really done it before.

What road this takes one down is anyone's guess. A road with out definition
or end, I guess.

Annihalation at death. Yeah right you wish, Taoists!

'nuff jibber-jabber, I go to chase the One thing that exists.

r_d
wanderriver
2006-05-24 02:34:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by r_d
Post by wanderriver
Taoist philosophy/leaning is definitely the alternative life-style here
in the Bible Belt. Although there is no problem, as our quiet
life-styles do not interfer with the patriarchial xians on the one hand
and the mainstream center/left xians on the other. Both types of xians
have attempted to convert me, many times, but it never worked. I leave
them alone, as I respect their beliefs and we help, as neighbors, when
and if the need arises and we pretty much leave beliefs and life-styles
out of it. It's cool!
Taoists have no rules, about anything, so there is nothing to break.
Some eat meat and some do not.
Thanks for breaking the boycott.
Wasn't really coming from the angle of an xism.
More like a heartflet thing.>>
Yes, I could appreciate. Same here.
Post by r_d
I have no question that it is very easy to be happy with no standards.>>
I'm glad you have some insight.
Post by r_d
And when the time comes for the inevitable bodily-mentally induced
suferring,
we can only hope but flick that imaginary switch to 'wu-wei'
- as if we have ever really done it before.
What road this takes one down is anyone's guess. A road with out definition
or end, I guess.
Annihalation at death. Yeah right you wish, Taoists!
'nuff jibber-jabber, I go to chase the One thing that exists.>>
a rabbit?
Post by r_d
r_d
foo
2006-05-23 15:50:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by wanderriver
Why the need for vegetarianism?>>
Taoist philosophy/leaning is definitely the alternative life-style here
in the Bible Belt. Although there is no problem, as our quiet
life-styles do not interfer with the patriarchial xians on the one hand
and the mainstream center/left xians on the other. Both types of xians
have attempted to convert me, many times, but it never worked. I leave
them alone, as I respect their beliefs and we help, as neighbors, when
and if the need arises and we pretty much leave beliefs and life-styles
out of it. It's cool!
Taoists have no rules, about anything, so there is nothing to break.
Some eat meat and some do not.
killing animals is a personal decision.
would you kill an animal just for the fun of it?
do you think you need to eat meat to be healthy?
i'm not so sure.
my parents grew up on a farm and they hardly ever ate meat.
they never slaughtered any of their animals for food.
they had large gardens with more than enough to eat.
we don't have the teeth of a meat eater.
if you crave meat, that is not so good imo.
meat that is unseasoned doesn't taste or smell that good.
'taoists' may have no rules, but they have some guidelines.
i think those guidelines can be applied to anything,
including one's choice of food and lifestyle.
Craig
2006-05-23 22:10:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by foo
Post by wanderriver
Why the need for vegetarianism?>>
Taoist philosophy/leaning is definitely the alternative life-style here
in the Bible Belt. Although there is no problem, as our quiet
life-styles do not interfer with the patriarchial xians on the one hand
and the mainstream center/left xians on the other. Both types of xians
have attempted to convert me, many times, but it never worked. I leave
them alone, as I respect their beliefs and we help, as neighbors, when
and if the need arises and we pretty much leave beliefs and life-styles
out of it. It's cool!
Taoists have no rules, about anything, so there is nothing to break.
Some eat meat and some do not.
killing animals is a personal decision.
would you kill an animal just for the fun of it?
do you think you need to eat meat to be healthy?
i'm not so sure.
my parents grew up on a farm and they hardly ever ate meat.
they never slaughtered any of their animals for food.
they had large gardens with more than enough to eat.
we don't have the teeth of a meat eater.
I've seen some folks to claim that tyrannosaur did not have teeth of a
meat eater. - Creationist/intelligent designist.
There was a video on PBS one time that showed a band of chimps chasing
a monkey. The chimps were pulling off and eating pieces while the monkey
was still awake and did not appear to be happy about it at all.
Post by foo
if you crave meat, that is not so good imo.
meat that is unseasoned doesn't taste or smell that good.
'taoists' may have no rules, but they have some guidelines.
i think those guidelines can be applied to anything,
including one's choice of food and lifestyle.
wanderriver
2006-05-24 02:44:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by foo
Post by wanderriver
Why the need for vegetarianism?>>
Taoist philosophy/leaning is definitely the alternative life-style here
in the Bible Belt. Although there is no problem, as our quiet
life-styles do not interfer with the patriarchial xians on the one hand
and the mainstream center/left xians on the other. Both types of xians
have attempted to convert me, many times, but it never worked. I leave
them alone, as I respect their beliefs and we help, as neighbors, when
and if the need arises and we pretty much leave beliefs and life-styles
out of it. It's cool!
Taoists have no rules, about anything, so there is nothing to break.
Some eat meat and some do not.
killing animals is a personal decision.
would you kill an animal just for the fun of it?
do you think you need to eat meat to be healthy?
i'm not so sure.
my parents grew up on a farm and they hardly ever ate meat.
they never slaughtered any of their animals for food.
they had large gardens with more than enough to eat.
we don't have the teeth of a meat eater.
if you crave meat, that is not so good imo.
meat that is unseasoned doesn't taste or smell that good.
'taoists' may have no rules, but they have some guidelines.>>
Guidelines are individual and vary. Taoists do not have guidelines
that say they should be vegetarian. There are no rules, no vows,
nothing to break.
Post by foo
i think those guidelines can be applied to anything,
including one's choice of food and lifestyle.
tianyue
2006-05-25 22:47:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by r_d
Why the need for vegetarianism?
People make different choices about lifestyle, and I respect the
different choices. Some vegetarians are becoming more and more
fundamentalistic in their zealousness, often showing very little
tolerance for non-vegetarians, as if the issue of diet is so obvious
and clear cut that there is no room for differing views. In their zeal,
they can become extremely arrogant.

This may not fairly describe your views, RD. You seem like a tolerant
person.

I don't want to get into a raging debate about diet, but there is
growing evidence the ancient paleolithic diet of our ancestors may be
the best diet for health. Lean meats, vegetables, and fruits, and small
amounts of nuts and seeds, were the mainstays of ancient people who
were hunter gatherers. These people were born eating such diets, and
there were no priests or diet gurus informing them on dietary theories,
rather, they simply ate what they were instinctually attracted to eat.
Observe birds, rabbits, deer and other animals, and notice the lack of
any books on diet in their midsts to explain proper eating habits. They
know what to eat without need for such instruction. The paleolithic
diet is the only diet that is not artificially conceived as a concept.
Post by r_d
-It's Healthy
There is disagreement among researchers about meat being harmful. For
our ancestors in the paleolithic era, lean meat in the form of wild
game was a staple food, as were vegetables and fruits. Grains, dairy,
and legumes were rarely used. There is evidence that these humans were
relatively free of the 'diseases of civilization.' They often died
younger, but this was more due to trauma and infection, not
debilitating diseases like diabetes, heart disease, cancer, etc., which
are diseases that have all been on the rise in our times. Meat,
especially in the form of wild game, has much to offer in nutrients,
such as B vitamins, esp, B!2, protein, and omega 3 fatty acids.
Post by r_d
-It's Economical
The modern diet is making people sick, which is not at all economical.
Post by r_d
-It's Ecological
Agriculture has been devastating to the environment. The clearing away
of natural habitats of wild animals to make room for growing crops has
done great harm to animal species around the world.
Post by r_d
-It's Compassionate
Alan Watts once asked a Buddhist monk why he was vegetarian, since
plants are thought by many to have consciousness and feel pain, and the
monk replied, "yes, but they don't scream as loud."

What is compassion? There is an order to the chaos of the universe, and
within that order, humans have been eating meat for about three million
years of evolution. To live within one's evolutionary design is not a
sin. Most birds, many insects, and a multitude of other species have
evolved as carniverous animals. Even some plants are carniverous. Is
the design of nature so flawed that we should fight it? Should all
species stop consuming other species? If all animals that eat other
animals were to stop, ecosystems within which the animals live would
likely perish. Is that compassion?
Post by r_d
-It's Noble
Another view is to simply respect the cosmic design for what it is: It
is always changing, morphing, creating life, destroying life. Stars are
formed, stars die out. Entire solar systems dissappear in a flash. That
is the Dao. It is the Way of things. Do you suggest fighting this?
Fighting it simply doesn't work, in the long run. It is better to
understand the way of things, then flow with that way. Is it more noble
to work against the way, or flow with the way?
Post by r_d
-It's Peaceful
It isn't at all peaceful to destroy habitats for crops. With the advent
of agriculture and civilization, life has not been very peaceful on
this planet for humans. Ancient meat-eating hunter-gatherers did not
have the technology to wage war on the scale we have today. What is
peace? Living in harmony with our own evolution, or fighting it and
suffering the consequences?
Post by r_d
-To diminish the real threat of a worldwide pandemic from bird flu,
There have always been viruses and bacteria that prey upon us. They,
too, could be said to be carniverous. This is the way things are. Get
rid of one, and another pops up in its place.
Post by r_d
-To avoid the danger of mad cow disease (BSE) and pig disease (PMWS), etc.
Mad Cow Disease is thought by many to have resulted from feeding
animals the wrong diet. This is what happens when a species is fed a
diet that is not compatible with the evolutionary design of that
species.
Post by r_d
-To stop the continuing gruesome sacrifice of billions of our sweet
domestic animals, marine life and feathered friends.
Everything in the universe experiences birth and death. Humans are prey
to animals as well (bacteria, viruses) and that is natural. It keeps
our immune systems strong to fight off a virus now and then. It is all
about maintaining balance in the ecosystem. Life is all about balance.
Artificially change things too much, and imblance results.
Post by r_d
No one needs to eat meat. Even dogs can be healthy vegetarians, living long
and enjoying life. This is not an embellishment!
Many dogs and cats become ill on a vegetarian diet. Diabetes, obesity
and arthritis are examples of such illnesses.
Post by r_d
Some people are concerned that vegetable protein is not a sufficient source
for their diet.
Plant protein isn't sufficient. There is no protein as biologically
available for humans as animal protein.

I was vegetarian/vegan for years, since the age of 14, and I can't tell
you how much better I feel now that I eat a paleolithic diet of lean,
healthy meat, along with plenty of fruit and vegetables. As a health
professional, I can easily report that most vegetarians I've treated
have signs of deficiencies. They are often tired, pale, and are weaker
than others. In Chinese Medicine, the deficiency would be termed Qi and
Blood deficiency.

It is interesting that Chinese Medicine does not generally advocate
vegetarianism. Animal protein is considered in that tradition to be
very nutritional. Meat is thought to build Qi and Blood. Tofu, on the
other hand, is considered to have a Cold energy, which is undesireable
for some persons. The Chinese view tofu as a poor persons food choice.
Of course, some Chinese doctors have adopted vegetarianism, but this
attitude is not at all reflected in the ancient literature that Chinese
Medicine is based upon.



Tianyue



However many simple foods provide more than enough for
Post by r_d
anyone.
*Protein Concentration*
-Tofu (from Soya): 16%
-Gluten (from flour): 17%
-Corn: 30%
-Rice: 8.5%
-Soy beans, kidney beans, chick peas, lentils, etc.: 10-35%
-Almonds, walnuts, cashews, hazel nuts, pine nuts, etc.: 14-30%
-Pumpkin seeds, sesame seeds, sunflower seeds, etc.: 18-24%
-Fruits and vegetables are full of vitamins, minerals and anti-oxidants and
contain high-quality fiber for maintaining good health and a long life.
-Concentrated multi-vitamin tablets/capsules are also a good source of
vitamins, minerals and anti-oxidants.
I am a vegetarian and have been for many years. I take no supplements and
lead a full existence. My weight has not changed and I am fully of energy
and life. I have known many people, vegetarian from birth, the same.
*For more information go to?*
http://AL.Godsdirectcontact.org.tw
http://www.vegsoc.org/
http://www.vrg.org/
http://www.vegsource.com/
wanderriver
2006-05-26 01:47:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by tianyue
Post by r_d
Why the need for vegetarianism?
People make different choices about lifestyle, and I respect the
different choices. Some vegetarians are becoming more and more
fundamentalistic in their zealousness, often showing very little
tolerance for non-vegetarians, as if the issue of diet is so obvious
and clear cut that there is no room for differing views. In their zeal,
they can become extremely arrogant.
This may not fairly describe your views, RD. You seem like a tolerant
person.
I don't want to get into a raging debate about diet, but there is
growing evidence the ancient paleolithic diet of our ancestors may be
the best diet for health. Lean meats, vegetables, and fruits, and small
amounts of nuts and seeds, were the mainstays of ancient people who
were hunter gatherers. These people were born eating such diets, and
there were no priests or diet gurus informing them on dietary theories,
rather, they simply ate what they were instinctually attracted to eat.
Observe birds, rabbits, deer and other animals, and notice the lack of
any books on diet in their midsts to explain proper eating habits. They
know what to eat without need for such instruction. The paleolithic
diet is the only diet that is not artificially conceived as a concept.>>
Post by r_d
-It's Healthy
There is disagreement among researchers about meat being harmful. For
our ancestors in the paleolithic era, lean meat in the form of wild
game was a staple food, as were vegetables and fruits. Grains, dairy,
and legumes were rarely used. There is evidence that these humans were
relatively free of the 'diseases of civilization.' They often died
younger, but this was more due to trauma and infection, not
debilitating diseases like diabetes, heart disease, cancer, etc., which
are diseases that have all been on the rise in our times. Meat,
especially in the form of wild game, has much to offer in nutrients,
such as B vitamins, esp, B!2, protein, and omega 3 fatty acids.
Post by r_d
-It's Economical
The modern diet is making people sick, which is not at all economical.
Post by r_d
-It's Ecological
Agriculture has been devastating to the environment. The clearing away
of natural habitats of wild animals to make room for growing crops has
done great harm to animal species around the world.
Post by r_d
-It's Compassionate
Alan Watts once asked a Buddhist monk why he was vegetarian, since
plants are thought by many to have consciousness and feel pain, and the
monk replied, "yes, but they don't scream as loud."
What is compassion? There is an order to the chaos of the universe, and
within that order, humans have been eating meat for about three million
years of evolution. To live within one's evolutionary design is not a
sin. Most birds, many insects, and a multitude of other species have
evolved as carniverous animals. Even some plants are carniverous. Is
the design of nature so flawed that we should fight it? Should all
species stop consuming other species? If all animals that eat other
animals were to stop, ecosystems within which the animals live would
likely perish. Is that compassion?
Post by r_d
-It's Noble
Another view is to simply respect the cosmic design for what it is: It
is always changing, morphing, creating life, destroying life. Stars are
formed, stars die out. Entire solar systems dissappear in a flash. That
is the Dao. It is the Way of things. Do you suggest fighting this?
Fighting it simply doesn't work, in the long run. It is better to
understand the way of things, then flow with that way. Is it more noble
to work against the way, or flow with the way?
Post by r_d
-It's Peaceful
It isn't at all peaceful to destroy habitats for crops. With the advent
of agriculture and civilization, life has not been very peaceful on
this planet for humans. Ancient meat-eating hunter-gatherers did not
have the technology to wage war on the scale we have today. What is
peace? Living in harmony with our own evolution, or fighting it and
suffering the consequences?
Post by r_d
-To diminish the real threat of a worldwide pandemic from bird flu,
There have always been viruses and bacteria that prey upon us. They,
too, could be said to be carniverous. This is the way things are. Get
rid of one, and another pops up in its place.
Post by r_d
-To avoid the danger of mad cow disease (BSE) and pig disease (PMWS), etc.
Mad Cow Disease is thought by many to have resulted from feeding
animals the wrong diet. This is what happens when a species is fed a
diet that is not compatible with the evolutionary design of that
species.
Post by r_d
-To stop the continuing gruesome sacrifice of billions of our sweet
domestic animals, marine life and feathered friends.
Everything in the universe experiences birth and death. Humans are prey
to animals as well (bacteria, viruses) and that is natural. It keeps
our immune systems strong to fight off a virus now and then. It is all
about maintaining balance in the ecosystem. Life is all about balance.
Artificially change things too much, and imblance results.
Post by r_d
No one needs to eat meat. Even dogs can be healthy vegetarians, living long
and enjoying life. This is not an embellishment!
Many dogs and cats become ill on a vegetarian diet. Diabetes, obesity
and arthritis are examples of such illnesses.
Post by r_d
Some people are concerned that vegetable protein is not a sufficient source
for their diet.
Plant protein isn't sufficient. There is no protein as biologically
available for humans as animal protein.
I was vegetarian/vegan for years, since the age of 14, and I can't tell
you how much better I feel now that I eat a paleolithic diet of lean,
healthy meat, along with plenty of fruit and vegetables. As a health
professional, I can easily report that most vegetarians I've treated
have signs of deficiencies. They are often tired, pale, and are weaker
than others. In Chinese Medicine, the deficiency would be termed Qi and
Blood deficiency.
It is interesting that Chinese Medicine does not generally advocate
vegetarianism. Animal protein is considered in that tradition to be
very nutritional. Meat is thought to build Qi and Blood. Tofu, on the
other hand, is considered to have a Cold energy, which is undesireable
for some persons. The Chinese view tofu as a poor persons food choice.
Of course, some Chinese doctors have adopted vegetarianism, but this
attitude is not at all reflected in the ancient literature that Chinese
Medicine is based upon.
Tianyue>>
Thanks, Tianyue. Simply food... fresh and simply made. Some are
vegetarians and some aren't, but both articles, yours and r_d were
informative.
Post by tianyue
However many simple foods provide more than enough for
Post by r_d
anyone.
*Protein Concentration*
-Tofu (from Soya): 16%
-Gluten (from flour): 17%
-Corn: 30%
-Rice: 8.5%
-Soy beans, kidney beans, chick peas, lentils, etc.: 10-35%
-Almonds, walnuts, cashews, hazel nuts, pine nuts, etc.: 14-30%
-Pumpkin seeds, sesame seeds, sunflower seeds, etc.: 18-24%
-Fruits and vegetables are full of vitamins, minerals and anti-oxidants and
contain high-quality fiber for maintaining good health and a long life.
-Concentrated multi-vitamin tablets/capsules are also a good source of
vitamins, minerals and anti-oxidants.
I am a vegetarian and have been for many years. I take no supplements and
lead a full existence. My weight has not changed and I am fully of energy
and life. I have known many people, vegetarian from birth, the same.
*For more information go to?*
http://AL.Godsdirectcontact.org.tw
http://www.vegsoc.org/
http://www.vrg.org/
http://www.vegsource.com/
David R Brooks
2006-05-26 10:06:31 UTC
Permalink
[snip]
Post by tianyue
Post by r_d
-It's Compassionate
Alan Watts once asked a Buddhist monk why he was vegetarian, since
plants are thought by many to have consciousness and feel pain, and the
monk replied, "yes, but they don't scream as loud."
What is compassion? There is an order to the chaos of the universe, and
within that order, humans have been eating meat for about three million
years of evolution. To live within one's evolutionary design is not a
sin. Most birds, many insects, and a multitude of other species have
evolved as carniverous animals. Even some plants are carniverous. Is
the design of nature so flawed that we should fight it? Should all
species stop consuming other species? If all animals that eat other
animals were to stop, ecosystems within which the animals live would
likely perish. Is that compassion?
As this is alt.meditation.quanyin, here's Master Ching Hai's "take" on this:
Yes, killing plants for food does incur karma, but at a much lower level
than killing animals. One of the reasons we meditate regularly is to
clear this karma.
(Sorry, I don't have the exact reference to hand.)
wanderriver
2006-05-26 12:15:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by David R Brooks
[snip]
Post by tianyue
Post by r_d
-It's Compassionate
Alan Watts once asked a Buddhist monk why he was vegetarian, since
plants are thought by many to have consciousness and feel pain, and the
monk replied, "yes, but they don't scream as loud."
What is compassion? There is an order to the chaos of the universe, and
within that order, humans have been eating meat for about three million
years of evolution. To live within one's evolutionary design is not a
sin. Most birds, many insects, and a multitude of other species have
evolved as carniverous animals. Even some plants are carniverous. Is
the design of nature so flawed that we should fight it? Should all
species stop consuming other species? If all animals that eat other
animals were to stop, ecosystems within which the animals live would
likely perish. Is that compassion?
Yes, killing plants for food does incur karma, but at a much lower level
than killing animals. One of the reasons we meditate regularly is to
clear this karma.
(Sorry, I don't have the exact reference to hand.)>>
Hmmm ... I've read the Buddha himself ate meat and didn't have much to
say on the subject, but knowing/rules do change. However, there is
something about not having to spill blood; one thing, spilling blood
reminds us of our own mortality and fragility and it is certainly is
less messy to slaughter corn than sheep.)
tianyue
2006-05-27 03:45:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by David R Brooks
[snip]
Post by tianyue
Post by r_d
-It's Compassionate
Alan Watts once asked a Buddhist monk why he was vegetarian, since
plants are thought by many to have consciousness and feel pain, and the
monk replied, "yes, but they don't scream as loud."
What is compassion? There is an order to the chaos of the universe, and
within that order, humans have been eating meat for about three million
years of evolution. To live within one's evolutionary design is not a
sin. Most birds, many insects, and a multitude of other species have
evolved as carniverous animals. Even some plants are carniverous. Is
the design of nature so flawed that we should fight it? Should all
species stop consuming other species? If all animals that eat other
animals were to stop, ecosystems within which the animals live would
likely perish. Is that compassion?
Yes, killing plants for food does incur karma, but at a much lower level
than killing animals. One of the reasons we meditate regularly is to
clear this karma.
(Sorry, I don't have the exact reference to hand.)
It appears that r_d began this thread by crossposting it on three
different newsgroups. I don't want to offend anyone's religious
beliefs, and I wasn't aware of the crossposting until now. I am posting
from alt.daoism.philosophy. I doubt that one can expect universal
agreement between Shabda Yoga teachings, which generally advocate very
strict vegetarianism, Master Ching Hai's teachings, which you have just
described, and Daoist philosophy.

Early Daoism, not really considered to be a religion, is much less
prone to adherance to dogma. And Chinese medicine, which was heavily
influenced by Daoism and to some degree may precede Daoism, is actually
much more evidence based (in this case, I am reffering to clinical
observation) than most people who've not studied the system would
surmise. In other words, the ancient Chinese were much more concerned
with discovering which approaches to diet and health actually work well
(rather than simply following religious codes) than many realize. As I
understand, it was only with Buddhist influence that Daoists began to
think about vegetarianism. In the Chinese Medicine tradition, it has
long been held that meat is nutritious, from thousands of years of
clinical observation. So we have different traditions with different
ideas, as well as different aims.

All that aside, it is the science of evolution, rather than religion or
philosophy, that may well have the last say in terms of which diet is
best for humans. DNA is a very powerful god with much influence over
such matters. DNA in humans hasn't changed more than .02 % in 40,000
years. Yeah, yeah, I know, spiritual folks think science is limited. In
many ways, it is. Increasingly, I find myself fascinated with the few
instances in which science and philosophy come together. As a Chinese
Med practitioner who has to live by the overview of State Medical
Examiners and other folks, by necessity I have my feet planted in both
worlds--the traditional world, and the world of modern science. While
science has amazing blind spots, there are, once in a while, times in
which it can shed light on certain issues.

Well, there is more that could be said...for those interested, here's a
good start:

http://www.thepaleodiet.com/

Karmic proscriptions seem to begin with someone (usually a master
figure) declaring some behavior to have negative karmic consequences.
So it appears that, if we are to accept this principle, early
hunter-gathering homo sapiens would have all been born, without knowing
it, into a sort of karmic original sin. The fact that they all ate meat
(as well as fruit, veggies, nuts, seeds), and had been eating meat for
three million years, means that if there is karma for such a thing,
then they were all creating karma before karma was conceived of as a
doctrine. It is similar to the Christian idea of being born in sin, it
seems to me.

In my view, the notion that natural behavior that is in accordance with
one's biology and evolution is somehow bad or creates karmic
retribution makes little sense. It seems to be something someone just
made up.

But that's just me....after having been vegan for more years than I can
count. All this said by a guy who grew up tripping on things I'd never
before dreamed of since I was 14 years old, as a
long-haired-flute-playing-guitar-strumming-yogic-twisting-taijichuan-dancing-aum-chanting-shabda-sound-and-light-listening-lysergic-acid-taking-adventurer.
Just so I'm not pegged too unfairly...

Well, I'm off to the Pacific Northwest for a few weeks...bye for now.

Tianyue
wanderriver
2006-05-27 11:34:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by tianyue
Post by David R Brooks
[snip]
Post by tianyue
Post by r_d
-It's Compassionate
Alan Watts once asked a Buddhist monk why he was vegetarian, since
plants are thought by many to have consciousness and feel pain, and the
monk replied, "yes, but they don't scream as loud."
What is compassion? There is an order to the chaos of the universe, and
within that order, humans have been eating meat for about three million
years of evolution. To live within one's evolutionary design is not a
sin. Most birds, many insects, and a multitude of other species have
evolved as carniverous animals. Even some plants are carniverous. Is
the design of nature so flawed that we should fight it? Should all
species stop consuming other species? If all animals that eat other
animals were to stop, ecosystems within which the animals live would
likely perish. Is that compassion?
Yes, killing plants for food does incur karma, but at a much lower level
than killing animals. One of the reasons we meditate regularly is to
clear this karma.
(Sorry, I don't have the exact reference to hand.)
It appears that r_d began this thread by crossposting it on three
different newsgroups. I don't want to offend anyone's religious
beliefs, and I wasn't aware of the crossposting until now. I am posting
from alt.daoism.philosophy. I doubt that one can expect universal
agreement between Shabda Yoga teachings, which generally advocate very
strict vegetarianism, Master Ching Hai's teachings, which you have just
described, and Daoist philosophy.
Early Daoism, not really considered to be a religion, is much less
prone to adherance to dogma. And Chinese medicine, which was heavily
influenced by Daoism and to some degree may precede Daoism, is actually
much more evidence based (in this case, I am reffering to clinical
observation) than most people who've not studied the system would
surmise. In other words, the ancient Chinese were much more concerned
with discovering which approaches to diet and health actually work well
(rather than simply following religious codes) than many realize. As I
understand, it was only with Buddhist influence that Daoists began to
think about vegetarianism. In the Chinese Medicine tradition, it has
long been held that meat is nutritious, from thousands of years of
clinical observation. So we have different traditions with different
ideas, as well as different aims.
All that aside, it is the science of evolution, rather than religion or
philosophy, that may well have the last say in terms of which diet is
best for humans. DNA is a very powerful god with much influence over
such matters. DNA in humans hasn't changed more than .02 % in 40,000
years. Yeah, yeah, I know, spiritual folks think science is limited. In
many ways, it is. Increasingly, I find myself fascinated with the few
instances in which science and philosophy come together. As a Chinese
Med practitioner who has to live by the overview of State Medical
Examiners and other folks, by necessity I have my feet planted in both
worlds--the traditional world, and the world of modern science. While
science has amazing blind spots, there are, once in a while, times in
which it can shed light on certain issues.
Well, there is more that could be said...for those interested, here's a
http://www.thepaleodiet.com/
Karmic proscriptions seem to begin with someone (usually a master
figure) declaring some behavior to have negative karmic consequences.
So it appears that, if we are to accept this principle, early
hunter-gathering homo sapiens would have all been born, without knowing
it, into a sort of karmic original sin. The fact that they all ate meat
(as well as fruit, veggies, nuts, seeds), and had been eating meat for
three million years, means that if there is karma for such a thing,
then they were all creating karma before karma was conceived of as a
doctrine. It is similar to the Christian idea of being born in sin, it
seems to me.
In my view, the notion that natural behavior that is in accordance with
one's biology and evolution is somehow bad or creates karmic
retribution makes little sense. It seems to be something someone just
made up.
But that's just me....after having been vegan for more years than I can
count. All this said by a guy who grew up tripping on things I'd never
before dreamed of since I was 14 years old, as a
long-haired-flute-playing-guitar-strumming-yogic-twisting-taijichuan-dancing-aum-chanting-shabda-sound-and-light-listening-lysergic-acid-taking-adventurer.
Just so I'm not pegged too unfairly...
Well, I'm off to the Pacific Northwest for a few weeks...bye for now.>>
Have a great Taoist time playing de flute, dancin' and strummin', and
eating whatever your innate nature decides to munch down. :)
Post by tianyue
Tianyue
r_d
2006-05-26 17:02:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by tianyue
Post by r_d
Why the need for vegetarianism?
People make different choices about lifestyle, and I respect the
different choices. Some vegetarians are becoming more and more
fundamentalistic in their zealousness, often showing very little
tolerance for non-vegetarians, as if the issue of diet is so obvious
and clear cut that there is no room for differing views. In their zeal,
they can become extremely arrogant.
Seeing as meat can be advertised from an unprovable angle, vegetarianism can
be advertised too. There is plenty of proof in this world for anything,
depending on where you look. The real proof for vegetarianism comes from
experience and inner experience. Cows do not like to be eaten by humans,
though they don't mind to die.

I would like to balance some of your comments.
Post by tianyue
This may not fairly describe your views, RD. You seem like a tolerant
person.
Thank you!
Post by tianyue
I don't want to get into a raging debate about diet, but there is
growing evidence the ancient paleolithic diet of our ancestors may be
the best diet for health. Lean meats, vegetables, and fruits, and small
amounts of nuts and seeds, were the mainstays of ancient people who
were hunter gatherers. These people were born eating such diets, and
there were no priests or diet gurus informing them on dietary theories,
rather, they simply ate what they were instinctually attracted to eat.
Observe birds, rabbits, deer and other animals, and notice the lack of
any books on diet in their midsts to explain proper eating habits. They
know what to eat without need for such instruction. The paleolithic
diet is the only diet that is not artificially conceived as a concept.
Human evolution is still not really understood, from what I gather. Or it is
understood differently in different places.

People eat Macdonalds all the time without being instructed too. People are
also full of misconception which no-one seems to be needed to teach.
Post by tianyue
Post by r_d
-It's Healthy
There is disagreement among researchers about meat being harmful. For
our ancestors in the paleolithic era, lean meat in the form of wild
game was a staple food, as were vegetables and fruits. Grains, dairy,
and legumes were rarely used. There is evidence that these humans were
relatively free of the 'diseases of civilization.' They often died
younger, but this was more due to trauma and infection, not
debilitating diseases like diabetes, heart disease, cancer, etc., which
are diseases that have all been on the rise in our times. Meat,
especially in the form of wild game, has much to offer in nutrients,
such as B vitamins, esp, B!2, protein, and omega 3 fatty acids.
Post by r_d
-It's Economical
The modern diet is making people sick, which is not at all economical.
Post by r_d
-It's Ecological
Agriculture has been devastating to the environment. The clearing away
of natural habitats of wild animals to make room for growing crops has
done great harm to animal species around the world.
Eight units of nutrition energy produce one unit of nutrition in meat. Eat
the food used to farm animals instead of farming animals and you have eight
times more food.
Post by tianyue
Post by r_d
-It's Compassionate
Alan Watts once asked a Buddhist monk why he was vegetarian, since
plants are thought by many to have consciousness and feel pain, and the
monk replied, "yes, but they don't scream as loud."
What is compassion? There is an order to the chaos of the universe, and
within that order, humans have been eating meat for about three million
years of evolution. To live within one's evolutionary design is not a
sin. Most birds, many insects, and a multitude of other species have
evolved as carniverous animals. Even some plants are carniverous. Is
the design of nature so flawed that we should fight it? Should all
species stop consuming other species? If all animals that eat other
animals were to stop, ecosystems within which the animals live would
likely perish. Is that compassion?
Talking about humans here. Humans are on the verge of emancipating
themselves from the 'wheel of transmigration'. Insects, Birds, Animals are
to different degrees lost in this cylcle. It's not a consensus taken to in
Taoism, though it seems there is some evidence for the concept to exist.
(Cultivating Stillness, Actions and Retributions)
Post by tianyue
Post by r_d
-It's Noble
Another view is to simply respect the cosmic design for what it is: It
is always changing, morphing, creating life, destroying life. Stars are
formed, stars die out. Entire solar systems dissappear in a flash. That
is the Dao. It is the Way of things. Do you suggest fighting this?
Fighting it simply doesn't work, in the long run. It is better to
understand the way of things, then flow with that way. Is it more noble
to work against the way, or flow with the way?
With the way! But our way is not one of coming into and out of existence,
it's just change baby!
Post by tianyue
Post by r_d
-It's Peaceful
It isn't at all peaceful to destroy habitats for crops. With the advent
of agriculture and civilization, life has not been very peaceful on
this planet for humans. Ancient meat-eating hunter-gatherers did not
have the technology to wage war on the scale we have today. What is
peace? Living in harmony with our own evolution, or fighting it and
suffering the consequences?
See the point above about the need for less agriculture if there is no
farming of animals.

If I am not living in harmony with my evolution, then why do I feel way
better than before when I ate meat? Why does everyone I know who is
vegetarian love it and have enough energy for anything?
Post by tianyue
Everything in the universe experiences birth and death. Humans are prey
to animals as well (bacteria, viruses) and that is natural. It keeps
our immune systems strong to fight off a virus now and then. It is all
about maintaining balance in the ecosystem. Life is all about balance.
Artificially change things too much, and imblance results.
Sure. In my view though the point is unrelated.
Post by tianyue
Post by r_d
No one needs to eat meat. Even dogs can be healthy vegetarians, living long
and enjoying life. This is not an embellishment!
Many dogs and cats become ill on a vegetarian diet. Diabetes, obesity
and arthritis are examples of such illnesses.
I'll check this one up.
Post by tianyue
Plant protein isn't sufficient. There is no protein as biologically
available for humans as animal protein.
For the four years I have been vegetarian I have worked in physical jobs. I
have hardly paid attention to my diet and my muscle mass even seems to have
increased and my strength is up there where is always was.
Post by tianyue
I was vegetarian/vegan for years, since the age of 14, and I can't tell
you how much better I feel now that I eat a paleolithic diet of lean,
healthy meat, along with plenty of fruit and vegetables.
MAybe one day you will feel the same from changing back.

As a health
Post by tianyue
professional, I can easily report that most vegetarians I've treated
have signs of deficiencies. They are often tired, pale, and are weaker
than others. In Chinese Medicine, the deficiency would be termed Qi and
Blood deficiency.
Never seen them. Perhaps next time you shoudl suggest that they a good
variety of vegetables and variety of protien sources.
Post by tianyue
It is interesting that Chinese Medicine does not generally advocate
vegetarianism. Animal protein is considered in that tradition to be
very nutritional. Meat is thought to build Qi and Blood. Tofu, on the
other hand, is considered to have a Cold energy, which is undesireable
for some persons. The Chinese view tofu as a poor persons food choice.
Of course, some Chinese doctors have adopted vegetarianism, but this
attitude is not at all reflected in the ancient literature that Chinese
Medicine is based upon.
I don't honour traditional chinese medicine though I do honour the concepts
they are built on. There is an admixture of unenlightenment in everything, I
think.


I could be wrong. I'm only relating the experience of everyone I know. I've
really never met these sicly vegetarins. They are like a myth to me.

I just wanted to suggest to people that it's an option. Most people have no
idea that it's possible to be vegetarian and live fully. I thought someone
might appreciate the tip off. Having oferred some alternatives to your
arguments, which seem solid,

I'm gone.

r_d
santmat_mystic
2006-06-04 07:20:17 UTC
Permalink
Nice ahimsa message. The folks from the God's Direct Contact website
were advertising it (the same exact text) for awhile during my radio
program on one network.

Namaste',

James
Post by r_d
Why the need for vegetarianism?
-It's Healthy
-It's Economical
-It's Ecological
-It's Compassionate
-It's Noble
-It's Peaceful
-To diminish the real threat of a worldwide pandemic from bird flu,
-To avoid the danger of mad cow disease (BSE) and pig disease (PMWS), etc.
-To stop the continuing gruesome sacrifice of billions of our sweet
domestic animals, marine life and feathered friends.
No one needs to eat meat. Even dogs can be healthy vegetarians, living long
and enjoying life. This is not an embellishment!
Some people are concerned that vegetable protein is not a sufficient source
for their diet. However many simple foods provide more than enough for
anyone.
*Protein Concentration*
-Tofu (from Soya): 16%
-Gluten (from flour): 17%
-Corn: 30%
-Rice: 8.5%
-Soy beans, kidney beans, chick peas, lentils, etc.: 10-35%
-Almonds, walnuts, cashews, hazel nuts, pine nuts, etc.: 14-30%
-Pumpkin seeds, sesame seeds, sunflower seeds, etc.: 18-24%
-Fruits and vegetables are full of vitamins, minerals and anti-oxidants and
contain high-quality fiber for maintaining good health and a long life.
-Concentrated multi-vitamin tablets/capsules are also a good source of
vitamins, minerals and anti-oxidants.
I am a vegetarian and have been for many years. I take no supplements and
lead a full existence. My weight has not changed and I am fully of energy
and life. I have known many people, vegetarian from birth, the same.
*For more information go to?*
http://AL.Godsdirectcontact.org.tw
http://www.vegsoc.org/
http://www.vrg.org/
http://www.vegsource.com/
Loading...